Gen2 Cannot be used when internet is down

[duanethorpe]

I had my eye on buying a Vue Gen2.  Sadly, after phone discussions with emporia support, which is a very nice service, we determined the Gen2 will not work for my use case.  I use a backup generator to supply power to my entire house when my normal utility provided power is down.  This is mainly during bad weather conditions.   Under those bad weather conditions my internet service provider lines are often also down.  I really need a real-time monitor of my power usage under those conditions so as to not overload my generator.  To be clear, I can make sure my router, modem, LAN, or anything else needed inside my house is up and running during generator usage, but I cannot control services outside my house, such as cable/DSL/Fiber internet service (or even the emporia servers in the cloud).  If any of these outside services are down I will not be able get the real-time data from the Gen2 even though everything inside my house has power (from my generator).

Let me just say I was very disappointed when I discovered this.  The Gen2 appears to be an amazing product at an incredible price.  And I easily got to talk to a knowledgeable person when I called, even more amazing.  However, I would think that across the country (and other countries), there are many people who would like to monitor their backup generator during bad weather conditions when internet conditions cannot be guaranteed.   Please someone let me know if I am misinformed or if there is a work-around.  Give me some way to get real-time data from the Vue using only my Wifi LAN (or Bluetooth).   By the way, I am knowledgeable in both hardware and software, arduino, ESP32, raspberry pi, etc.

[waterboyz]

DuaneThorpe

Looks like it has been a while since you posted such a major request.  Am I the only one who is also interested in this?

[duanethorpe]

waterboyz, Agree yours is the first response to my post. Since emporia did not respond to my original post, I decided to “roll my own solution”. I am a retired Electrical Engineer so I have the time and tinkering with electronics/programming is a fun hobby. I have provided a link below to my GitHub page where you can see what I did. I do not intend for my solution to be in competition to the emporia units. I am not selling anything. My solution requires more time and labor to implement, but most important to me is it meets my requirements. And it is all local to my network, no cloud.

If you are wondering if the Raspberry Pi 3B+ is powerful enough for power measurements every 2 seconds, I will say definitely yes. It has been running for well over a month, never missing a beat. In fact I recently started sending air quality info from inside my house via an ESP32 microcontroller to the RPi. So I can even display that data also, no problem. That is the beauty of using popular hardware and software where there are lots of examples on the internet from folks who have done something similar to what you want. Anyway, best of luck to all of you.

github.com/DuaneOne/House-Electrical-Power-Usage-Monitor-Including-Generator         (note I removed hyperlinks since my attempt with them was deleted, so you will have to copy and paste into your browser).

[waterboyz]

DuaneThorpe said:   I am very grateful for each person before me who took the time and effort to post their work for others to use.

I thank you for your detailed work.

I did read through your GitHub posting and it is VERY detailed.  I was trained on vacuum tubes so I’m old and have seen the evolution of computers.  I have been intrigued by the Raspberry but have not made the time or applied the energy to get into it…..yet.  As I mentioned elsewhere, I’d be interested in an energy usage system that is idiot resistant and checkbook friendly this does not use the Cloud.  But, alas, I’m in the Emporia World for the time being.

It has been mentioned elsewhere the interest in having something like Emporia that is not Cloud-based, so we will have to wait to see if they kinda branch off to a market that is out there for that kind of information.

I’m guessing that you and I and a few others here will have to find a place to gather since we may get booted from here since it is not Emporia related.  Any ideas of a place?

[waterboyz]

DuaneThorpe said:  (note I removed hyperlinks since my attempt with them was deleted, so you will have to copy and paste into your browser).

I discovered that as I was posting links to useful products and my reply was instantly deleted with no reason given.  Even if I used their official “LINK” button.  So yeah, gotta leave off the htpp….www part.  So stupid.

[duanethorpe]

waterboyz, Thanks for your nice comments. Getting into programming, even with something as user friendly as the Raspberry Pi, can be very time consuming. I certainly understand your reasoning in wanting a non-cloud based emporia. They make a great product for what it does and no one can beat or even match their price point. If they chose to offer a non-cloud version, I feel they would likewise do a great job and a great price. Nevertheless, I do not know their business model and long-term objectives.

As for another forum to meet, I do not know of a more appropriate place, but I’m ok if someone suggests one.   I’m not too concerned about emporia booting us off. There is a mutual benefit for them to hear what other folks want and what they are thinking. At least to me the important part is to not sell a competing product in their forum. I would think it would be ok to post hobby related designs or even discussions of pro/cons of other competitors. That is how I think, but alas, I admit I don’t make the rules here. I will say the one time I talked to a emporia person on the phone, he was very courteous and knowledgeable. The same for emporia posts here in the forum. So, if they ever consider our posts as “crossing the line”, I feel they will be courteous enough to give us a warning before booting us off.

[waterboyz]

DuaneThorpe

Yes, leaving us here and not promoting competitive products would benefit Emporia.  But, as you say, we are not hanging out in their board or coffee shop, so this is our only medium to be seen.   I look forward to furthering the activity here.

[Mike_S]

Just adding my support for non-cloud based option for the data. Emporia has recently been doing updates on their servers which is great, but it also results in a lot of lost data while the work is done. Additionally, they don’t do it in what I consider to be “off hours”. That may be the result of having a small team and that we don’t pay for the data service, so it’s okay.

Having a cloud-based option is great, but I think there area  fair amount of us who like to tinker with things and could set up a home-based monitoring solution like the OP here. I would prefer to use the Emporia hardware since it is easy to install and setup. Using my firewall, there may be a way to reroute the packets going to the cloud to a local datastore but I will only really look at engineering that some day if their downtime becomes worse than it is. It’s been spotty last couple of weeks but maybe they are fixing an issue.

[Mike_S]

This is why a local option would be great!

[waterboyz]

Mike_S said:  This is why a local option would be great!

That is why an SD card of some type that would part of the control module could be a great enhancement.

[natbesh]

I think its good that we push Emporia to deliver value, if they dont deliver value & its easier & better for us to look at other options like openenergymonitor dot org, then we will!

The cost & ability of the emporia hardware is unbeatable, and of course they get our data to play with & make money – they just need to keep developing features for us!

[waterboyz]

Netbesh…

Right on…right on.

[Emporia Support]

Hi @duanethorpe,

First off, would just like to say thanks for taking the time to talk to support and working through your specific requirements. When building these kind of products within organizations, there are a lot of stakeholders with different opinions so I appreciate your understanding when it comes to the difference between an “ideal” device and what we’re able to build/provide.

As a separate point, I love the Github repo you’ve posted and I’ll be taking some time to digest it. Very cool.

 

For the other participants in this thread, we are working on making this forum more accessible and a better conduit for ideas both between Emporia and customers (or potential customers) as well as enthusiasts in general. I don’t have any additional details to provide at the moment, but I’m hoping that the forum can be a fun place to discuss energy monitoring in a variety of forms.

For those who may be looking for local monitoring solutions, here are some links we usually recommend if you’re needing something outside of the Vue’s functionality:

• https://openenergymonitor.org/
• https://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-home-energy-monitor-shield/
• https://unop.uk/raspberry-pi-electricity-monitor/

 

Thanks!

Emporia Support Team

[wz2b]

Is there any documentation or a statement that says how much data the Vue2 is able to store (and forward later) in the event that the internet goes out?  I had an internet outage on May 15 (about five weeks ago).  I looked back at the 1 hour database and there are no gaps in the 1 HOUR data.  The 15MIN data is all gone so I can’t tell from that.  But it seems like the device itself is able to cache its data for some period of time until the internet becomes available again.  It would be great to get some understanding of how much time that is.

[Kevin @ Emporia]

@wz2b, Here is an outline of the devices’ behavior when it looses connection to the network:

The device can buffer up to ~15mins worth of measurement data. If it detects an outage or can’t send data it will continue to keep track of those measurements and upload it all when that connection is available again. If the outage is over 15 mins, then it will still keep track of the total usage and average it over the time period of the outage (or when it lost connection).

[CombatCaptured]

Just wanted to add that I’m currently adding a generator transfer switch and have started to look at monitoring energy usage, I’ll skip this device till they add a local option. That work around is hugely impressive but Way over my head!

[flyoffacliff]

yeah I agree this is important.

I almost bought a competitor device that cost almost double, because of this limitation.

I am glad I got the Emporia, but still disappointed with this limitation.

There’s a good chance these devices being installed and hardwired into electrical panels will be there for 10 years or longer.

Who knows if they will still be in business and running the cloud servers in the year 2033?

[smellslikeMI]

I’m interested in this feature, as well. I have the same scenario as the OP, running a backup generator.

[kermitjr]

Yes to this, as well. Emporia, if you made a self-hosted version an option (docker, Home Assistant, etc.) … you would gain a tremendous amount of followers.

I purchased simply because it is the best pricepoint. The required internet was nearly a dealbreaker (Had there been any other simple alternative, I would not be here). Heck, I’d even pay a bit more money to NOT have to use internet. Maybe a self-host license fee (like Blue Iris).

You would become THE de facto for DIYers on so many levels.

Please consider it … and let us know if you need beta testers!
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[cayossarian]

Now that Emporia is pushing the Vue gen2 as an Energy Management System that adjust your EV charging capacity it seems like they would need to provide for the Vue to function when the Internet is down.  So what’s the EV charger to assume for a proper load when the Internet is down?   Seems like a big problem if you can’t charge without Internet or the capacity drops to the lowest value or worse starts popping breakers as the total service capacity is exceeded.

[Bnu]

Hi,

as I’m looking for offline usage of the Vue too, I found this thread. So there is still no option?

I like the 16 sensor monitor very much. So I wrote to the support, as I read at the website to write in case of the wisht of offline usage. Let’s see and hope.

Storage of data would be my 2nd prio, primary I want to see the Watts of every line. Ordered some plugs to switch devices on depending on solar power.

And all of that I’d like to have offline.

• This reply was modified 8 months ago by Bnu.
• This reply was modified 8 months ago by Bnu.
• This reply was modified 8 months ago by Bnu.

[Bnu]

ok, it was about local access, not offline usage, understood wrong. But still hope.

[emporiacs]

Hi, Emporia Vue Energy Monitors need a constant 2.4 GHz WiFi connection to be able to transfer data to our cloud and the Emporia app.

[SiliconAddict]

I picked up the Gen2 and found this out as I went to battery backup on my home network this week as internet was out as well.  I couldn’t monitor jack to decrease load on the battery to extend it’s run time….I’m probably going to rip this system out for something that can actually work without internet.  Live and learn I guess.

[Author]

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