Support status for non-standard usage?

[mat]

Hi there, I recently purchased the Emporia Vue Gen2 on the grounds that I could at least re-flash the device to provide me with local-only control.

I am under no illusion that any support I get from Emporia would go out of the window, but to an extent I had factored that in to the purchase.

However, having set it up, I actually really like the iPhone app and the fact there’s a web UI as well. It is very nicely designed (I noted some review online saying the app wasn’t very “polished” – maybe for people who are looking for style over substance, but for me it seems very polished indeed as a UI, as it gave me exactly what I wanted and I found it easy to navigate given the advanced functions it puts at your fingertips).

As a side note, the reason I wanted to buy it to flash it with my own firmware was that I have a general mistrust of third party cloud providers that (a) they will go bust and it will literally stop working as there’s no ongoing contract, (b) they will get bought out by Google (or some other) then the process of dumbing-down / maximising profit for the lowest common denominator person starts, (c) they will have interest from investors who will then seek to maximise profit, and will start charging an annual or monthly fee for cloud services, (d) the service will become increasingly unreliable leaving users like me upset, (e) there will be some security alert involving data being passed to a rogue state, one that isn’t dealt with properly as it the very competent developers who started the project no longer work there etc… and potentially my network / data is put at risk and I have to make a choice whether to continue using it

Given enough time I think we can all agree that almost all of the above will definitely happen (based on the “infinite monkey theorum”) and certainly at least one in the next few years. If I could guarantee not, then I would not feel the need.

Right – so with all that out the way, here are my questions – maybe to others who know, maybe to the developers:

1) How do you actually *feel* about users who wish to flash your devices with their own firmware? I know you cannot possibly say you would support it, but do you actively discourage it, do you know it goes on and turn a blind eye, or are you happy there’s a thriving bunch of idiots like me who buy your gear knowing they can use it in the way they really want to? I guess the reason I want to know is this: let’s say I have flashed the device within a few days of buying it (which I haven’t actually yet!) and then I find that some piece of hardware was missing from the pack – would you take a reasonable approach and say “sorry we don’t support the fact you have done that and we can no longer talk to you about helping you with this other thing”? – i.e. are we still valued customers?

2) I know very little about the company – what are the plans to expand / gain more investment / hire new staff etc? What about investing in new infrastructure as the user base increases? What about responsiveness to customer ideas etc?

3) Aside from flashing the device and getting local control, I have also seen that others make use of some kind of cloud API, and that Emporia are aware of this and seem generally okay with it, as long as people don’t “take the mickey” (as we Brits would say). Is that largely correct, and is that set to change? What’s the general direction of travel here? Why do you provide the API, for what purpose? People like me? Is it documented? Are you happy we use it?

Thanks

Mat

FYI, a bit about me: in the past I was working with Shelly EMs and creating local user interfaces, see my youtube vid / blog post if anyone interested. I hope nobody thinks I’m trying to advertise Shelly here (certainly not my youtube channel which I don’t make money from – just a hobby), I have a couple of these but I do think the Emporia Vue Gen 2 is an UPGRADE to the Shelly in pretty much every way so I will be glad to become an advocate for Emporia, especially making youtube vids and writing blog posts etc.

• This topic was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by mat. Reason: make things bold

[djwakelee]

My belief is the Emporia stuff is very economical because this data is being aggregated and sold.  I have not reviewed the end-user info in detail because this doesn’t bother me if true, but it might concern some people.  I would think if this data is not being logged and sent to the Emporia cloud (device descriptions as well as usage), they would have a have a problem with that – and not advocate such tinkering.  That said, it is an ESP32, so if you want to tinker, it is a pretty standard platform to do so.  Challenge would be understanding how to speak to the power monitoring microcontroller that they also use for the full solution.  And because this is non-transformer isolated, need to understand high-voltage safe practices with power line embedded electronics.

[flyoffacliff]

I too would be really curious to see what Emporia says to these questions, but I am skeptical they will make a public statement.

It seems like they’re not developing this anymore though. There have been feature requests (like proper 240v support) that were promised years ago and never happened.

Knowing how businesses operate, I would bet that Emporia hired a contractor to develop the apps and backend stuff, and now that they finished the job and are no longer around, the current company staff know how to support things but they don’t have a highly skilled developer on the team to make major changes. That’s just my guess.

[Neat0]

I wish I had read this before purchasing this product. This is basically what these companies are doing. I think Sense makes more sense at this time even at double the price. I guess you get what you pay for.

[MattS]

I have both the sense and the emporia vue.

 

Emporia Pros:

• Individual circuit monitoring (exact usage monitoring)
• Semi-useful information from app and web app

Emporia Cons:

• Granularity of collected data – even though the claim is 1 second, my sense captures AC motor initial spike load where the emporia just captures the average load.  I.e., when my AC turns on, the initial fan motor + compressor spike will go to, say 8kw for a second while it starts up, then drops to 4kw.  Sense picks this up, Emporia just captures 4kw
• Even though we have access to the web app, you can’t monitor on a dashboard as the app times out; if you attempt to use home assistant to capture the data, Emporia will send you emails saying you polling too much and they may limit your account

Sense Pros:

• A more real time energy capture
• App is more refined and allows for dashboarding
• The app through its ‘AI’ detect process can (sometimes) detect an individual appliance versus an entire circuit

Sense Cons:

• Sense only connects to your mains (or an option to add another set of leads for mains + one circuit or solar) which means how it determines what is running is through it’s ‘AI’ detect process (next bullet)
• Sense’s AI for detecting appliances is, well, lacking.  It will detect an appliance; then it will detect it again; loop; I had fourteen times it found my ‘dryer’, and if you don’t keep up with deleting the old ones, you end up with lots of devices that never show usage

I initially bought a Sense, but found it wasn’t able to provide me the individual circuit data that I was really looking for.  I then found the Emporia Vue, which I replaced the sense with.  However, I’m probably going to install both to get more data (never have enough data).

 

[emporiacs]

We appreciate your interest in Emporia. As most people know, we obsess over customer satisfaction and we try to be as transparent as possible about our business practices. So, let’s set the record straight on your assumptions:

1. Emporia DOES NOT sell aggregated data, nor do we have plans to do so.
2. We are a very small team with minimal overhead that works extremely hard to deliver a great product at an excellent value.
3. Our development team is located in Littleton, Colorado and not outsourced.
4. We continue to develop and release new features, functionalities, and hardware products on our platform.

Yes, there are feature requests that have been on our roadmap for quite some time. We prioritize these by the number of people requesting them and the developmental level of effort. Then, we weigh them against our business goals. We plan to all viable address feature requests when we can allocate the resources.

We have released many new features such as: Energy Management, which includes Peak Demand Management, Time-of-Use Management, and Excess Solar Optimization to automate charging your EV, running your HVAC, and turning small appliances on and off.

We have just released a Load Management solution that will allow consumers to avoid costly panel upgrades and still get the full benefits of a level 2 EV charger.

We’ve brought new smart plugs to market in the UK and Europe, as well as our PowerStation Home Battery available in 10, 15, and 20 kWh.

We have also been making improvements in cloud and app performance to ensure data remains available and free as our customer base continues to grow.

We hear your requests. They are being documented and we will address them when we can. Thank you for your patience.

[Author]

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