[djwakelee]

I think they need to confirm the problem and fix it.  It works great in the US for 120/240V split phase – measures real power.  But based on what I’ve read here, I’m afraid to use this in a commercial 3 phase 208V/120V US setup.  Need them to clarify what it does in that setup.

In the US our 3 phase is Y type (3 phases and center common), but there are several forms of 3 phase across the world (such as Delta).  Here is a link that describes some of the many types.  Emporia is specific that only 3 phase 4 wire Wye is supported, whereas Delta is not.  I wonder what specific 3 phase type you have.

Electrical Service Types and Voltages

Another possibility is that Emporia is purposely showing apparent power for 3 phase because that is how commercial customers are often billed.  But not always (there is some 3 phase for high-end residential), so it needs to be configurable.

 

• This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by djwakelee.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by djwakelee.

[djwakelee]

I suspect it is more of an issue with cable, since all those RF amplifiers you see on the utility poles are not battery backed.  Spectrum is my provider, but definitely not unique issue to them.  The OP also mentioned that his fiber internet usually goes out when the power goes out. Not clear if his issue is small battery in supplied home fiber equipment, or if a power loss in the service upstream.  The only ‘wired’ service that worked in my area during power outages was DSL – worked just like wired phone lines during no power.  But no one uses DSL anymore if they can avoid it, since relatively low bandwidth.

[djwakelee]

At least in my area, a loss of power at the home also results in power loss across the utility area.  The various amplifiers (for cable) or extenders (for fiber) loose power also, and then no internet anyway – even if home has a UPS.  The new cellular gateways don’t have that problem (such as from Verizon and T-mobile), nor would Starlink.  But making a change like that seems extreme just for energy monitoring to be maintained during a power outage.

[djwakelee]

Indeed asked before, and answer is yes.  Just don’t go crazy with the added length to avoid noise pickup.

[djwakelee]

Normal way is to add a 2nd Vue2 and up to 16 more circuit clamps.  You don’t use the 200A mains clamps on the second Vue2.   For the breakdown of the 17-32 circuits, you can expand the devices under the 2nd Vue 2. Since there are no mains clamps (0 power), you’ll also see a surplus balance figure for that Vue2 – which actually represents the total consumption for all circuits monitored by the 2nd Vue2.  If you are monitoring every circuit in your panel, this will match the unaccounted for balance figure shown under the 1st Vue2.  This is a nice double check that everything is as you expect.  Doing it this way, all the math adds up when you look at the main Vue2 – and it’s total power consumption vs. the mains.

Just FYI, many people have been asking for a single list of devices in the app, better 240V support, voltage display, etc.  Emporia software update promised, dates missed, seems unlikely we will ever get this.  Their focus seems more on launching new products, and not fixing the shortcomings with their existing ones.  I would like to be proven wrong.  If you have a subpanel, you can ‘nest’ that Vue2 beneath in the app.  But a single list for a busy panel with more than 16+ circuits is not supported.

For me, I have more than 32 circuits in a single panel.  So I have to use single clamps on some 240V loads, and pass multiple wires through the clamps for some 120V loads.  Do know that physically squeezing two Vue2’s in a panel can be challenging.  I had to add a box below my panel to house the 2 Vue2’s, and all the clamps are in the panel.

[djwakelee]

Yes of course with that setup the total sub panel must not draw 50A total or the reading would clip with a 50A clamps.  But even though the subpanel is on a 100A 240V circuit, it doesn’t sound like there is 100A of loads on either phase from what is described.  And like you also stated, in the photo there are (4) 120V 15A breakers, and (1) 20A breaker.  I don’t see a continuous draw of more the 50A on either phase, so this will work fine.  And yes, can measure the loads separately if he wanted to – with just sharing clamps between panels and circuits, or with a 2nd Vue2 (and circuit clamps) for the subpanel.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by djwakelee.

[djwakelee]

Yes.  That is how you’d typically monitor the full draw of the subpanel.

Other option is to not monitor the subpanel main feeds, but put individual circuit clamps within the sub panel (so some circuit clamps in each panel).  If your panels are close and the wires reach (or can be extended) – that’s an option if you need to know the individual draw of the furnaces and lights.  Or of course, a 2nd Vue2 setup for the subpanel.  All are options, depending on how low level you want to monitor, and how many circuits.

[djwakelee]

The Vue 2 hardware is the same no matter what type of electrical service you have.  Only difference in measuring single, split phase, or three phase is how many mains clamps you attach to the unit, and how you wire the power feed (black, red, blue).  They have bundles to purchase that include various number of mains clamps, and various numbers of circuit clamps.

[djwakelee]

That is not correct.  The quadplex breaker provides (2) 240V circuits – in the same size breaker spot normally that would just fit one.  From the Vue standpoint, you’d need 2 to 4 clamps, depending on if the 240V loads are balanced or not.

[djwakelee]

Honestly, they are hard to recommend at this time.  We’ve been promised better support for 240V loads and logical joining of multiple Vues (for those with big panels for 2 years) – but these software improvements just aren’t ever coming it would seem.  Their ecosystem is solely cloud based for everything, and that may be a turn-off for you.  But bigger issue is they seem to have orphaned this product from a software development standpoint, and focusing on their EV chargers and new products.  Couple that with the fact their smart plugs are dying for everyone, and it is just hard to recommend them.  Great value for what you are getting, but I guess the age-old ‘you get what you pay for’ applies here.

I’m sad to be unable to recommend.  The product has so much potential.  But their development team does not seem interested in fixing and improving the Vue 2.  Does that mean they are working on a Vue 3 or are just overloaded, I don’t know.

[djwakelee]

I had to do some research – never seen such a thing before.  So each of those 4 individual breakers are half  height – with a common trip bar on the inside, and a separate trip for the outer ones.  In the space that occupies, you could normally only put 2 120V (single) or 1 240V (dual) breakers in that spot.  But at half height, you can fit twice as many breakers.  You may have seen dual breakers that fit in a single slot.  In that case, both circuits are on the same phase.  This special animal allows you to have two 240V breakers in one 240V spot.  Because the adjacent 1/2 height breakers are on the same phase, you have that weird trip arrangement so you can get the two phases joined.  And you can get these in mixed currents, like your dual 20 / 50 A.  But basically this breaker just lets you put (2) 240V breakers in the spot that could normally have just (1) 240V breaker.  Neat.

You will need either 2 clamps or 4 clamps to monitor the two 240V circuits, depending if the loads are balanced or not.  If the 240V circuits go to an AC compressor, pump, hot water heater, or EV charger – they are balanced and you just need 2 clamps (1 for the 20A circuit, 1 for the 50A circuit).  Then you need to use the 2x multiplier in the app.  If however these breakers go to a sub panel, dryer, range, or hot tub – those are typically unbalanced and you need a clamp for each phase (4 total).  Easy to tell – just see if a neutral wire goes with that circuit out of the panel.  If the circuit uses neutral (in addition to ground), the load is unbalanced and you need 4 clamps.

 

• This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by djwakelee.

[djwakelee]

That’s standard residential split phase 120/240 – not 3 phase.  The red and black are the hots, the white is the neutral, and the un-insulated wire likely goes to a ground rod.

In this standard setup, you’ll want your mains clamps plugged into to the A and B terminals of the Vue 2.  I think you mentioned hooking up to B and C – this is incorrect.  Your power connections are a bit hard to see, but the white and blue connected to the neutral bar is correct.   The red and black wires would need to do to a double pole breaker – not two individual circuits.  If you have room in the panel this is best done with a new 15A dual pole breaker, but if not you can tie off an existing dual pole 240V circuit.  Can’t tell if you did that or not.  The online manual details those two different scenarios.

After you connect things correctly (moving the mains from B/C to A/B), you’ll need to re-run setup for the Vue 2 be configured properly.

[djwakelee]

Is it safe, probably.  Is it correct and will it read accurate readings – can’t say until seeing the setup.  But everything you described doesn’t sound correct.  And residential in the US is rarely 3-phase, unless a mansion.   Shouldn’t be referencing the Sense documentation – as that’s a different product from a different company.

 

 

[djwakelee]

Please post a picture of your setup and electrical panel.  Typically residential is not 3 phase.  Based on the wire coloring, it sounds like you may have this installed in a sub panel, which would be standard 120/240V.  But a picture of your electrical panel (cover off) and showing the Vue2 and hookup will help us advise you correctly.

[djwakelee]

Do you have a photo of your install?  US 120/240V installation, or 3 phase or 240V single phase?  How did you power the Vue 2 with the specific wires (not all are typically used)?  Can you better describe what specifically isn’t reading right?  Is the mains values current, and just an issue with a few circuits?  Photo of your app screen?  With that info, usually someone can help here.

A few basic points…

1) CT clamps must be fully latched.  If not, they can impact (and be affected) by other circuits.

2) Less than about 8-10W of power are forced to zero by the app.  So if you are trying to read a circuit with low-ish power (say a circuit with just a cell phone charger), the circuits wouldn’t read anything – but the mains clamps will be correct for the total household draw.

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